Beneath the Surface of Swimming Pool's Ludivine Sagnier
Perched high above the Michigan Avenue lunchtime rush, on a hot Chicago summer day; I'm relaxing in the interview suite at Chicago's Four Seasons hotel, awaiting a chat with Ludivine Sagnier. The striking young French actress stars alongside regal Charlotte Rampling in the new psychological thriller Swimming Pool. Suddenly, I detect a faint burning smell. Further investigation reveals what seems to be the remnants of a recent fire, including a partially charred clothespin and some badly burned paper, tossed aside on a nearby cocktail table.
For a moment, a series of delicious comic thoughts come to mind. Is she one of these wild-child, rock-star types, who is thrilled to trash hotel rooms in between her interview gigs? Too cliché, I decide. The moment comes alive with the tantalizing possibility that the actress herself just might hold a few of her own secrets, akin to those of the mysterious young woman she fully inhabits in her new film.
I turn to meet her and I'm immediately taken by just how lovely she is in person. Warm, petite, even prettier than she is on film (no mean feat, to be sure), she radiates a sincere and welcoming vibe, far removed from any polite PR agenda. She looks great, and though in person actors rarely appear as vibrant and attractive as they do on screen, Ludivine Sagnier is a notable exception.
She's also quick to explain the origin of the mysterious smell - a minor fire with a TV crew's lights, a blown fuse and a lively morning. Secret revealed. Mystery nixed. But I'm on to the possibility that there may be more. I dive in, undaunted.
Lee Shoquist: I saw Swimming Pool last week, and thought it was terrific. I'm a big fan of your director Francois Ozon. You've worked with him more than any other actress, correct?
Ludivine Sagnier: For the moment, yes.
Shoquist: Tell me about your mutual relationship and artistic collaboration
over your three films (Water Drops on Burning Rocks, 8 Women,
Swimming Pool) in the last four years. How has the evolution been? You
once said you have an "artistic complicity" with Ozon. What does that mean to
you?
Sagnier: Well, I think it's something very intimate. No, no, no… I don't mean
it's as in the next couple that you can ¾ like marriage, not at all.
Shoquist: I got it.
Sagnier: I didn't know it at first. When we worked together on Water Drops
on Burning Rocks (pours a glass of water and addresses tape recorder)…
I'm drinking! We really had a very simple and childish complicity towards the
idea of making a movie. First it was just like a game, and even though we were
talking and relating the deep and dark sides of humans, we always laughed at
it, because everything that would make us laugh would be good. Maybe we
share some cynical ideas or something like that, or maybe just a pure, childish
attitude.
So we had great laughter doing Water Drops on Burning Rocks, and then
doing 8 Women was actually a coincidence for me because I had to replace
somebody. So he gave me that part and it was amazing for me. It was
amazing for him too, because he was well-known in France and all that but
wasn't that successful and that commercial. So when he had all those women
in front of him he was very amazed. And since I had the part of the tomboy - I
was the boy of the family - I was almost his double…
Shoquist: I read that you said that and wondered what that actually meant.
Sagnier: Yes. In his own way, Francois is kind of a tomboy too. So we
became very close, because I was a little mouse peeping in on all those
actresses. And he would say, `Okay, did she like it? Did Catherine (Deneuve)
say anything to you?' So I was like (whispering), `She thinks this is s**t…'
(laughs). It was amazing. We really are like cats and dogs, always fighting
together like brother and sister. I don't have any brothers, so he's a bit like my
brother. And then he didn't expect that I would fit too easily into the character in
8 Women, because at the beginning of the shoot I was too feminine, and he
thought maybe I wouldn't be able to embrace a boyish character. But I did
work on the attitude and way of working, shoulders in…
Shoquist: You were dressed down physically as well, right?
Sagnier: Yes, I was trying to erase all the things that were feminine, and trying
to be six years younger. Though he didn't tell me, I think that in a certain way he
was quite amazed that I was more of a composition actress. So he found out
that he could give me more and more challenges, and he wanted me to
blossom, and that's possibly why he wrote Julie's role in Swimming Pool. But
as we work together more and more, he's increasingly demanding. He gives
me a lot, but he also asks a lot from me.
Shoquist: It must be easier now since you know each other so well. Can you
almost anticipate what the other is thinking when you're working together?
Sagnier: Yes. Well, it's really hard because even if I can anticipate him and
I'm very cheeky and light and all that - I'm always teasing and poking him - when
I'm on the set, I'm very vulnerable as a person - not as an actress, but as a
person. And he's the boss, so I'm not that powerful.
Shoquist: There's a quote you made that I thought about specifically in
reference to this film. You said when you first worked with him you were
unwilling to endanger yourself. Do you remember saying that? I think that
means keeping yourself a little more guarded in terms of…
Sagnier: Yes, to endanger myself, I know what that is. But I think that's the
root of being an artist is to deliver something very personal and very intimate.
The further you go inside of you, the more vulnerable, the less strong you are,
because you give yourself and get psychologically naked. So I think it's harder
to be naked and vulnerable in a psychological way than in a physical way.
Swimming Pool.
Sagnier: Mm-hmm. Do you mind if I smoke?
Shoquist: No, sure, go ahead!
Sagnier: Good. You're a good American! (laughter)
Shoquist: It's rough here in America for smokers now.
Sagnier: Oh, in L.A…
Shoquist: Well, you've heard about the law in New York, right? New York City
has banned smoking - no more public smoking! You can't even smoke in
nightclubs or bars. I think somebody died - a security guard at a club stopped
somebody from smoking, caused an argument and he got… (I perform an
exaggerated stabbing gesture)
Sagnier: No! (gasps)
Shoquist: Yes, it was about six months ago! But enjoy it now - it's fine with me!
Sagnier: Okay!
Shoquist: I was reading an interview with (French actor) Benoit Magimel…
Sagnier: Mm-hmm.
Shoquist: And I think he began smoking during the conversation, and he
made a reference to the fact that smoking is fine in Europe and there's no
stigma attached.
Sagnier: Yeah, but in Cannes, Nicole Kidman…
Shoquist: I know! Big thing here. Big deal!
Sagnier: You know, in France we were like "Wow, Nicole, you rock!"
Shoquist: It was front-page news here.
Sagnier: Yeah, but for us it was like `Wow, she's got guts, man!' I was there
with Francois, and we were amazed because all the publicists say, `There are
ashtrays. But don't smoke. It's an international report, so don't you ever
smoke.' And I think in the whole world there's only Nicole and Catherine
Deneuve who are allowed!
Shoquist: Yeah, and in the United States, of course the very next day it was
like, `Oh, no! She smokes! She's a role model…'
Sagnier: Yes! That's the thing! Just after Cannes, I went to Australia to finish
my movie, and there were covers everywhere with Nicole with the cigarette,
(laughter) whereas in France we thought it was `Wow!' (cheers)
Shoquist: I don't think I saw any photos here in the United States, I just read…
Sagnier: Yeah, because she's Australian. They never lose an occasion to
dis' her there.
Shoquist: In Australia?
Sagnier: Yeah.
Shoquist: Well, anyway…
Sagnier: That's okay, but I talk about her because she's one of the actresses
that I worship.
Shoquist: Oh, I love her. I thought she was great all the way back in the `80s.
Do you remember Dead Calm?
Sagnier: I haven't seen that one!
Shoquist: She's terrific in it. And of course, then she got married and people
here in the United States thought, `No, she's just his wife, and in his films or
whatever…'
Sagnier: Right.
Shoquist: But she's been totally vindicated now.
Sagnier: She was born before that.
Shoquist: You were talking about being psychologically naked versus
physically. Tell me about Julie, and this is probably a very American thing to
focus on, which you probably never get asked in Europe, but the very physical
side of this role, from an American critic's perspective, seems very challenging
because we don't see that here. That doesn't happen at all with young working
American actresses or actors. They are very safeguarded against that type of
thing.
Sagnier: They're safeguarded about everything. I'm sorry, but…
Shoquist: Oh, it's fine. I'm with you. I'm trying to be politically correct, so
maybe I should turn off the tape recorder and then we'll just talk! (laughter) You
never, ever find that in young American actresses. There's always a clause in
the contract stating that we can't show this, or we can't show that.
Sagnier: Yeah, everything has to be doubled and all that…
Shoquist: Oh, of course, you need a body double and all that. It's really funny,
because there's so much of an insistence on the physical part of young actors.
The "look" is so important that you almost need to get breast implants, and then
the irony is that you won't show them!
Sagnier: That's the thing, whereas in France, we don't have surgery. Well,
they do, but you can show them. You can see them in the street. There's only
one district in Paris and it's like…
Shoquist: It has to do with the way women are seen in American movies. I
heard Catherine Deneuve talking about this, saying that unlike in America, in
Europe women are allowed to age and to look their age. And look how
beautiful she is. But in the United States, we have actors who are sixty paired
with actresses in their early twenties.
Sagnier: Yes.
Shoquist: Once you get over a certain age, forget it.
Sagnier: What did you think about Charlotte's performance?
Shoquist: Phenomenal. Great, because in the film she's able to do that very
thing Deneuve was referring to.
Sagnier: Yes! But she cares about aging, because she was so beautiful at
my age. But she says, `Well, I don't care. When you give yourself entirely to a
character, that's when you have to go through and it's nothing but a body. It's
okay. You give your soul, why not give your body?'
Shoquist: Let's talk about Julie. When there's that much nudity, you must
become comfortable on the set pretty quickly, because you know that much of
the running time of the film you're going to be in that state of undress, right? Is
that an issue for you when you're building the character? Is that a difficult thing
for you to do? Or is that the easy part compared to the task of building a
psychological portrait? More specifically, there's a great scene in the film
between the two of you, that comes after Charlotte has been searching for you
all over town. When she finds you, there's an emotional breakdown. That's a
big, painful scene. How difficult was that?
Sagnier: Yes. It was.
Shoquist: Is that more difficult to do than the physical stuff?
Sagnier: Oh, yes. Definitely. Yes, because the physical exhibition, once
you've done it and you're naked once, everybody knows you and especially
because Francois works with the same crew. I've done three movies with all of
the people on the set, so they know me, and they saw me naked when I was
nineteen in Water Drops on Burning Rocks. So I was in the family and I
knew that I was with people I could trust. And especially because I had worked
out on my body so I felt very confident - I had muscles and all that - so I wasn't
wobbling all around!
Shoquist: I see that a lot in European films. Some performances that come
to mind would be Vincent Cassell and Monica Bellucci in Irreversible…
Sagnier: Yeah.
Shoquist: You never see that here, but that's a great pairing, very open, and
not just the big scenes, like the scene where she's raped…
Sagnier: I hate that scene.
Shoquist: That scene is hard. But the beautiful scenes in the second half of
the film where they are alone together…
Sagnier: Yes, definitely!
Shoquist: Totally natural and comfortable.
Sagnier: Yeah, but it's also like Kidman and Cruise in Stanley Kubrick's
Eyes Wide Shut.
Shoquist: Yeah, which is probably more to do with Kubrick getting them to that point.
Sagnier: Yes.
Shoquist: There's another one included in that class, and it's Stephane
Rideau in Presque Rien (American title: Come Undone). I'm butchering the
French language, sorry!
Sagnier: I haven't seen it, but it's funny you're talking to me about it!
Shoquist: It's an interesting movie with the types of performances I'm talking
about. We call them risky, but you would probably call them natural and
appropriate for the characters.
Sagnier: We call them risky too. In France, a lot of people asked me about
me being naked and stuff, but they just thought it was a great composition and
that it was very daring and all that. But to me, there was just as much
composition as doing 8 Women and playing the tomboy, as there was in
Swimming Pool.
Regarding the psychological aspect, as the movie goes Julie gets more and
more vulnerable, because she becomes the target of the fantasy of Sarah. And
I think if you're acting in response to a certain fantasy, just knowing that
someone is peeping at you and stealing your life as Sarah does with Julie, it's
more difficult than just being naked. So from that particular moment - the
nervous breakdown - we realize that Julie is not the easy girl, but she really is a
much more interesting girl than we thought she was. And we go deeper and
deeper inside. So that was the hardest thing to play. Definitely.
Shoquist: You're right on there. We see her at the beginning of the film, and
we automatically think we know this type of girl and exactly who she is. There
doesn't seem to be much going on inside her.
Sagnier: No, no.
Shoquist: But then gradually, as the film progresses, there's more and
more…
Sagnier: For me she was a child, in need of affection and attention.
Shoquist: And I guess we can't really discuss the conclusion of the film. But
when we realize what has or hasn't happened, it makes it even more
fascinating really, who she is or isn't.
Sagnier: Yes.
Shoquist: Tell me about Charlotte, specifically how you worked together and
pulled off that amazing chemistry.
Sagnier: Well, I think it's a question of devotion. Charlotte is such an
amazing woman. First, as an actress, she's not demanding at all. She's very
simple. She doesn't require anything particular. She treats you as everybody
else. She doesn't have the "star" attitude that maybe some actresses in 8
Women did. And so she's not intimidating at all, because she just behaves
like a normal person. And since she had already done another movie with
Francois, she was already a pillar in his work. So she belongs to Francois'
family, which made it like meeting a cousin. It's fascinating sometimes the way
you work, because sometimes you feel like there are really familial
relationships. So if movies were babies, Charlotte would be an aunt or a
cousin. She trusted me all the way through. She gave me strength and
support. She listened to me. She's someone who is very quiet, and the kind of
woman with whom you can share so much just by saying nothing and being
together in silence. And we just let ourselves go with it and had a great time.
Shoquist: What do you think she would say about working with Ludivine
Sagnier?
Sagnier: She said that it was quite the same and that we shared things
together. Sometimes people fake their devotion or they're not as genuine as
they pretend they are. And I think both of us were really honest and genuine.
Shoquist: Let's talk about your career. What do you see in your career when
you look five or ten years down the road? In an American actress' eyes, it
would be getting to the top box office weekend or having huge hits…
Sagnier: Yes. But you know I'm not going to do that. I haven't done that many
movies, but what I know is that I like to bounce on a different character each
time, doing something that I've never done before. So I would like to surprise
myself, to challenge myself to be in front of a huge wall that I have to climb. So
every time I read a script, if the character looks too easy for me, and I know
exactly how I would play her…
Shoquist: Then there's nothing to discover.
Sagnier: Exactly. I really need to be frightened by a story, where it's like
(gasps), What is going to happen to me? What will I discover? How will I
improve? What does the director offer me, and what does he want from me? I
want every time to get beyond what I already know and grow up.
Shoquist: What's most important in the relationship between you and the
director? You look for freedom and latitude to explore, or do you feel like you
prefer to work more with a director who is specific about exactly what he wants
from you?
Sagnier: I definitely need a close relationship with the director. It can be full
of clashes, just like with Ozon, because it was. It really was. I like to be kicked
in the a** in order to improve and get something right. I like that. But I also like
when people say, `Okay it's good. I trust you. Do whatever you want.' So it
depends on the person.
Making movies is a second love life. I actually mean a second emotional life.
So I need to have a "love story" with the director. That doesn't mean I sleep
with them. Even if the director is a woman or whatever. But it's something that
we create together and that you never forget. I might be very idealistic. I don't
know.
Shoquist: Speaking of acting, don't you agree that if you're a really good
actor, you have to also have a great understanding of human nature, emotions
and feelings, and what makes people tick?
Sagnier: Yeah, but I wouldn't be that pretentious. I don't think that I have to
create that human behavior. My body and my soul are like tools, like
instruments for a musician. I need that tool to be as perfect and as precise as
a violin. I just want to be able to give the most truth I can in terms of describing
human behavior. I just want to me like a (runs hand back and forth on the table,
searching for the perfect English word)… you know, like a metal…
Shoquist: Conductor.
Sagnier: Yes, exactly!
Shoquist: Do you find that the energy that happens in a film, the great thing
that transpires between actors in a scene, to be more exciting that most
feelings that can happen in real life? I do. It's so sensitizing.
Sagnier: Yes! Because whatever you're feeling, you give that to somebody
else, and you expose it. And especially in the movies, you expose it forever,
because it's recorded. So it's much more fun that my real life! (laughs)
Shoquist: I have a French friend who lives in Paris, with whom I attended film
school here in the states years ago. And she knows quite a few people in the
film community there. She's been lucky enough to be quite good friends with
Agnes Varda.
Sagnier: Oh, yes! Okay.
Shoquist: She once hit me a line that I have not forgotten: `The problem with
American film is that you are amusing yourselves to death.' From your
perspective, what do you think of the American product and the amazing global
export throughout Europe? I would guess we probably agree on this, but what's
your take on European cinema today versus what you see of American
cinema?
Sagnier: I think that European cinema is getting more and more influenced in
American ways of selling.
Shoquist: I thought this when I saw a film by Matthieu Kassovitz,
entitled The Crimson Rivers. It's a serial killer film…
Sagnier: I didn't want to see it. I boycotted it.
Shoquist: For those reasons?
Sagnier: Yes. It looked just like…. Well, the trailer was like (puts on sinister
voice) `He's bad. He's coming back. He's going to kill you.' So I'm just afraid
of that influence. Of course it creates revenue, which helps to create middle
budget movies. But there are more and more [films] that are feeding the
audience nothing. For example, the owners of the theaters do really bad things,
such as renting three screens for Star Wars, because they know they will be full
all of the time. So they don't have any room anymore for a French middle
movie, you know? And it's going to become more and more like this,
especially because our initial source of finance for cinema was a channel that
has been bought by Universal. So I'm a bit scared.
Shoquist: That makes two of us. What can you tell me about (her upcoming
film) Peter Pan?
Sagnier: (Her eyes light up with affection) Oh…
Shoquist: I enjoy P.J. Hogan's films immensely, and I wish he did more. I can
only count three, which would be Muriel's Wedding, My Best Friend's
Wedding and now Peter Pan. Is there another one?
Sagnier: He's done one with Rupert Everett, but I don't think it's been bought
by an American distributor.
Shoquist: He's such an energetic director. Muriel's Wedding, which I saw
again recently, is a beautiful and colorful film. It's really alive.
Sagnier: It really is. Yeah, I really love what he's doing.
Shoquist: What about this one?
Sagnier: Well, even if this one is a blockbuster and all that, in a certain way I
think it could be a masterpiece. Because he understood everything about
Peter Pan, and even though it is a child's story with much adventure and special
effects, I think he's going to be very honest toward the ambiguity of all these
relationships. And he's taken some great chances.
Shoquist: And you're Tinkerbell, right?
Sagnier: Yes. I just finished two weeks ago. (She excitedly withdraws a
Polaroid of her on-the-set Tinkerbell, giving me a first glimpse of her sweet,
costumed visage)
Shoquist: What happens for you next?
Sagnier: Holiday!
Shoquist: Great meeting you and thanks for sharing your insights. It's been a
lot of fun.
Sagnier: It has! Thank you.
